Interviewer:

Thanks for joining us. You know the system. You know the government system there and the intelligence system there. You're a former diplomat.

Akbar Ahmed:

Yes, yes.

Interviewer:

Is it feasible to you that the ISI, Pakistan Intelligence, wouldn't have known where he was.

Akbar Ahmed:

No. The Pakistan Intelligence, the ISI, is a very influential organisation, huge organisation. It has networks throughout Pakistan and its capacity to be alert and aware of what's going on in the field is very, very impressive, so the chances that the ISI would be caught sleeping with Osama Bin Laden himself, the most wanted man in the world, living a few hundred yards [crosstalk 00:00:42], inconceivable. Now then, the question is: What did they know? When did they know? Was he, in fact, their "guest"? And then, why was he sort of exposed to the world? All these [big 00:00:54] questions.

Interviewer:

Also, beyond intelligence, and there's always been a separation in Pakistan between government and intelligence ...

Akbar Ahmed:

Yes. There's always some tension.

Interviewer:

The political establishment. Would they have known or is that ...

Akbar Ahmed:

No, this is a better question because I go back to the 1990's about the Pakistan nuclear programme and [inaudible 00:01:10]. As Prime Minister complained, she said that "I was kept in the dark and out of the loop about Pakistan's nuclear programme."

Interviewer:

It might be the same-

Akbar Ahmed:

So, maybe. Maybe. Because the Army and the ISI are a very powerful institution in Pakistan and the political governments tend to be shaky, not very permanent, being accused of corruption and incompetence all the time. So, the Army, which really feels that it represents the destiny and the identity and the dignity of Pakistan very often-

Interviewer:

Beyond the government-

Akbar Ahmed:

... feels-

Interviewer:

Beyond the government [inaudible 00:01:42]

Akbar Ahmed:

... that we shouldn't completely trust them.

Interviewer:

Much as they might have, Pakistan, possibly harbouring Bin Laden, is there an objection to this assault? I mean, it's effectively a military assault-

Akbar Ahmed:

Yes. Yes, it is. Absolutely. Helicopters flying in and getting-

Interviewer:

... on Pakistani soil.

Akbar Ahmed:

Yes. There definitely is and you're hearing strong statements coming out of the foreign office. The Commander in Chief, General Keane made strong statements. And the same time, you notice the statements. They're not actually going over the brink. It's still holding back. Saying, "This is terrible. It shouldn't happen again." And that's it. So, it's only saying it happened and that's it. We are not [exempt 00:02:18]. It's a red line. It was crossed.

Interviewer:

It's been quite moderate response then.

Akbar Ahmed:

It is, yes. It is a moderate response.

Interviewer:

Does that surprise you. I mean, why is it so moderate? I mean, this could have been a military attack. It could have been India attacking.

Akbar Ahmed:

But, you see, it was moderate precisely because both understand the importance of each to the other.

Interviewer:

Yes.

Akbar Ahmed:

That was why it was moderate. And your India point is well-taken because the commentary in Pakistan is saying precisely that. That if Americans did this, what if the Indians now flew in and said, "We want the culprits who we think are behind the attacks on Mumbai a couple of years back and we'll just come in and take them out."

Interviewer:

And they'd have a full hour before any jets scramble to shoot down the choppers.

Akbar Ahmed:

That's why I'm extremely, extremely interested to know what exactly was the role of the Pakistan military and Air Force when these helicopters flew into Pakistan.

Interviewer:

It seems incredible. It seems incredible that nothing happened. Does it suggest to you that perhaps they did know?

Akbar Ahmed:

More than this. What about the C113 that [inaudible 00:03:16] flew backing the helicopters? It was a C113 flying, which effectively jammed the radio system [inaudible 00:03:24], which I am told flew from Tarbela, which is in Pakistan. So if that is the case, the Pakistan Air Force would have known and these are the things that I think will come out in time and when you put two and two together, it's obviously four.

Interviewer:

And could you imagine the scenario where the government would want to admit that they knew-

Akbar Ahmed:

I can't, I can't-

Interviewer:

It would be shameful for them to admit.

Akbar Ahmed:

Yes. Not only shameful. More than shameful. Because if President Zardari would just say, "I fully participated in this operation.", the backlash would be terrible and he himself has admitted this in the article he wrote for the Washington Post. Remember in Pakistan, there's still a mystique in some sections of society for many reasons. They call him [Shia 00:04:07]. They've given him a religious title, so it's not like Saddam Hussein.

Interviewer:

Yes.

Akbar Ahmed:

They see him as a man who gave up great wealth, who lived a life of hardship, fought for a cause, he believed for an Islamic cause. And therefore, there is that mystique and the backlash would have been strong against Zardari and therefore, I can understand why he would back off from any association in public with the operation and again, that, at some level, I suspect would have been communicated to the Americans.

Interviewer:

Are you sensing, just on your own level, you know the Pakistani community here, of course, as well as in your homeland ... are you sensing indignation at all?

Akbar Ahmed:

I think among Pakistanis, the indignation is genuine. It's genuine, it's very strong, Pakistanis have already, the last couple of months, there's been a lot of anger growing against America. The sense that you just take us for granted, flying these drones, we keep complaining, women and children are being killed, innocent people are being killed, you just don't seem to care, you drop bombs from 30,000 feet. And then, to top it all, you have this operation. So, the anger is genuine. Now similarly in American, the anger is genuine. The sense that we cannot trust these Pakistanis.

Interviewer:

Yeah.

Akbar Ahmed:

So, both sides, again, the metaphor the bad marriage is perfect. The two spouses rarely complain, knowing each other, they've known each other for half a century, they have no trust left, they have lots of anger and loathing against each other and yet, they know we are stuck with each other.

Interviewer:

The marriage-

Akbar Ahmed:

This damn guy, we can't get rid of this fellow or, you know, this woman. So, you're sort of stuck with each other and I think that is the awareness amongst the leaders.

Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Thank you, sir.