00:00:00.07
--> 00:00:02.12 |
- I
am Julian Assange, |
00:00:02.12
--> 00:00:04.22 |
(radio chattering) |
00:00:04.22
--> 00:00:06.19 |
editor of WikiLeaks. |
00:00:06.19
--> 00:00:08.23 |
We've exposed the world's secrets, |
00:00:08.23
--> 00:00:10.07 |
- These documents belong to the |
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--> 00:00:11.13 |
United States government. |
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--> 00:00:12.20 |
-
been attacked by the powerful, |
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--> 00:00:14.16 |
- United States strongly condemns. |
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--> 00:00:15.22 |
- And quit asking questions. |
00:00:15.22
--> 00:00:16.22 |
- He broke the law. |
00:00:16.22
--> 00:00:18.05 |
- Illegally shoot the son of a (censored). |
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--> 00:00:20.05 |
- For
500 days now, I've been |
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--> 00:00:22.12 |
detained without charge, |
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--> 00:00:24.23 |
but that hasn't stopped us. |
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--> 00:00:26.00 |
(speech distorted) |
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--> 00:00:27.04 |
(crowd chanting) |
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--> 00:00:29.00 |
Today, we're on a quest for revolutionary
ideas |
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--> 00:00:31.23 |
that can change the world tomorrow. |
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--> 00:00:38.10 |
During the last year, the Middle East |
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--> 00:00:41.03 |
has been shaken by rebel movements, |
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--> 00:00:44.14 |
and Tunisia is the country where it all
started. |
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--> 00:00:46.04 |
Today, I talk to the first president |
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--> 00:00:49.23 |
of the new Tunisia, Moncef
Marzouki, |
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--> 00:00:52.21 |
a medical doctor and human rights activist
by training, |
00:00:52.21
--> 00:00:55.06 |
Marzouki is cut from a very different cloth |
00:00:55.06
--> 00:01:00.03 |
than his flamboyant and corrupt predecessor,
Ben Ali. |
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--> 00:01:03.02 |
Exiled and imprisoned under the Ben Ali
regime, |
00:01:03.02
--> 00:01:05.14 |
Mazouki is
considered to have the greatest |
00:01:05.14
--> 00:01:08.15 |
moral authority of all Arab leaders, |
00:01:08.15
--> 00:01:10.06 |
but I wonder, how long can it last? |
00:01:10.06
--> 00:01:13.20 |
The transformation of Tunisia is far from
complete, |
00:01:13.20
--> 00:01:15.24 |
and President Masouki
must now face |
00:01:15.24
--> 00:01:17.22 |
the realities of power. |
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--> 00:01:22.08 |
- Mr. President, can you hear me? |
00:01:23.21
--> 00:01:26.03 |
- Hello, how are you, Mr. Assange? |
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--> 00:01:28.24 |
- It is very nice to see you. |
00:01:28.24
--> 00:01:31.04 |
- You know I have always been very |
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--> 00:01:33.20 |
admiring of the job you have done, |
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--> 00:01:35.24 |
and I think, really, we... |
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--> 00:01:39.09 |
I wish you the best, you know, |
00:01:39.09
--> 00:01:42.24 |
and if you ever have some problems, |
00:01:42.24
--> 00:01:46.03 |
you would be welcome in Tunisia. |
00:01:46.03
--> 00:01:47.20 |
- Thank you. (laughs) |
00:01:47.20
--> 00:01:50.20 |
So you were
imprisoned back in 1993, |
00:01:51.24
--> 00:01:54.07 |
and I was in prison in 2010, |
00:01:56.17
--> 00:01:59.04 |
but this experience was very interesting for
me, |
00:01:59.04
--> 00:02:02.12 |
how to survive solitary confinement, |
00:02:02.12
--> 00:02:06.08 |
and I think, perhaps, everyone should go
through |
00:02:06.08
--> 00:02:08.01 |
this experience, just once. |
00:02:08.01
--> 00:02:11.10 |
Can you tell me how you survived prison? |
00:02:14.24
--> 00:02:17.16 |
- Well, I just spent four months |
00:02:18.22
--> 00:02:22.07 |
in solitary confinement, but Hamadi Jebali, |
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--> 00:02:24.02 |
which is the prime minister in Tunisia, |
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--> 00:02:27.21 |
spent more than 10 years in solitary
confinement, |
00:02:27.21
--> 00:02:29.09 |
and I always admired him. |
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--> 00:02:31.07 |
I never understood how he could |
00:02:31.07
--> 00:02:33.24 |
survive through this kind of experience, |
00:02:33.24
--> 00:02:35.21 |
because, after just four months, |
00:02:35.21
--> 00:02:37.24 |
I was just talking to myself, you know. |
00:02:37.24
--> 00:02:39.21 |
I really got crazy. |
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--> 00:02:42.03 |
I went crazy because when you have |
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--> 00:02:44.03 |
just to talk to yourself, |
00:02:44.03
--> 00:02:46.05 |
to be alone with yourself |
00:02:48.17
--> 00:02:51.12 |
all this time, it's a terrible experience. |
00:02:51.12
--> 00:02:53.19 |
This is why I think it's a kind of |
00:02:53.19
--> 00:02:55.15 |
psychological torture, |
00:02:58.06
--> 00:03:00.06 |
and so many people say, |
00:03:00.06
--> 00:03:02.02 |
"Look, you have never been tortured in
prison.", |
00:03:02.02
--> 00:03:04.23 |
and I use to say, "No, I was under
torture, |
00:03:04.23
--> 00:03:06.14 |
"but it was
another kind of torture, |
00:03:06.14
--> 00:03:09.01 |
"and probably
one of the worst." |
00:03:09.01
--> 00:03:11.00 |
I think that more than 30,000 people |
00:03:11.00
--> 00:03:13.23 |
have been tortured in Tunisia, |
00:03:13.23
--> 00:03:15.08 |
and I was angry for them, |
00:03:15.08
--> 00:03:18.00 |
and I was angry for these people |
00:03:19.09
--> 00:03:21.14 |
who can hold the torture, |
00:03:21.14
--> 00:03:23.03 |
and then go back to home |
00:03:23.03
--> 00:03:25.15 |
and play with their children, and listen to
music, |
00:03:25.15
--> 00:03:27.13 |
and have a normal life. |
00:03:29.01
--> 00:03:30.22 |
I never understood how |
00:03:33.05
--> 00:03:36.03 |
can you accept the things like this |
00:03:38.12
--> 00:03:42.05 |
and be sure that you are still a human
being. |
00:03:46.24
--> 00:03:49.06 |
How can you survive through this kind of
experience? |
00:03:49.06
--> 00:03:51.00 |
I think when you know this, |
00:03:51.00
--> 00:03:52.21 |
when you know that you are fighting |
00:03:52.21
--> 00:03:55.24 |
for human rights, for good values, |
00:03:55.24
--> 00:03:58.01 |
then you can have enough resistance |
00:03:58.01
--> 00:04:00.01 |
to tackle the situation. |
00:04:00.23
--> 00:04:03.18 |
- These people who took action against you |
00:04:03.18
--> 00:04:07.03 |
and your friends, in Tunisia, under the Ben
Ali regime, |
00:04:07.03
--> 00:04:10.01 |
the former head of Intelligence, for
example, |
00:04:10.01
--> 00:04:11.14 |
do you meet them now |
00:04:11.14
--> 00:04:13.09 |
that you are president? - [Moncef] Yes. |
00:04:13.09 -->
00:04:14.21 |
- And what do they say? |
00:04:14.21
--> 00:04:16.09 |
Do they apologize? |
00:04:17.20
--> 00:04:19.20 |
- No, no they don't apologize. |
00:04:19.20
--> 00:04:23.10 |
They all say, "Look, we obeyed orders. |
00:04:23.10
--> 00:04:25.06 |
"We are just civil servants.", |
00:04:25.06
--> 00:04:28.24 |
and this, for me, is completely unacceptable |
00:04:28.24
--> 00:04:31.22 |
because I think that everybody has to have |
00:04:31.22
--> 00:04:34.01 |
his own will, that he has to face |
00:04:34.01
--> 00:04:37.07 |
his own responsibility, and it's too easy |
00:04:37.07
--> 00:04:40.09 |
to say, "I was just obeying
orders.", |
00:04:41.18
--> 00:04:45.11 |
and I can't accept this kind of excuse |
00:04:45.11
--> 00:04:47.08 |
because it's a sign also the fact |
00:04:47.08
--> 00:04:51.05 |
those people are not only cold, cruel, |
00:04:51.05
--> 00:04:53.01 |
but also they don't
have any kind of |
00:04:53.01
--> 00:04:55.10 |
dignity, any kind of honor. |
00:04:55.10
--> 00:04:57.13 |
We have to accept your own responsibility |
00:04:57.13
--> 00:04:59.05 |
and to say, "Look, I did it. |
00:04:59.05
--> 00:05:02.05 |
"Sorry, I was wrong.", but I never
heard |
00:05:02.05
--> 00:05:05.10 |
any one of them saying, "Sorry, I was
wrong." |
00:05:05.10
--> 00:05:06.24 |
- You said that the first victim |
00:05:06.24
--> 00:05:10.22 |
of a dictatorship is its intelligence
services. |
00:05:10.22
--> 00:05:13.01 |
What did you mean by that? |
00:05:15.01
--> 00:05:17.01 |
- I think because those people because |
00:05:17.01
--> 00:05:18.22 |
they just accept, obey the dictator. |
00:05:18.22
--> 00:05:20.22 |
They give up everything, |
00:05:22.20
--> 00:05:25.03 |
their humanity, their honor, |
00:05:27.10
--> 00:05:30.03 |
just for being there, for sharing |
00:05:32.00
--> 00:05:34.19 |
the power, and that they are also |
00:05:36.16
--> 00:05:39.02 |
the victims of the system, |
00:05:39.02
--> 00:05:40.09 |
and you probably know that the people |
00:05:40.09
--> 00:05:43.07 |
perpetrating torture they always |
00:05:43.07
--> 00:05:45.16 |
and in very sad situations, |
00:05:45.16
--> 00:05:47.16 |
some of them become ill, |
00:05:48.24
--> 00:05:51.03 |
some of them commit suicide, |
00:05:51.03
--> 00:05:54.22 |
and I think torture destroys not only |
00:05:54.22
--> 00:05:56.13 |
the people who are submitted to torture, |
00:05:56.13
--> 00:05:58.10 |
but also the people
torturing other people, |
00:05:58.10
--> 00:06:01.10 |
so yes, it's terrible thing, for both sides, |
00:06:01.10
--> 00:06:03.13 |
for the people committing torture |
00:06:03.13
--> 00:06:05.24 |
and the people submitted to torture. |
00:06:05.24
--> 00:06:09.18 |
- In the United States, we have an alleged
source, |
00:06:09.18
--> 00:06:12.23 |
the alleged source of the diplomatic cables |
00:06:12.23
--> 00:06:15.10 |
which included materials that came out |
00:06:15.10
--> 00:06:17.02 |
in Tunisia about Ben Ali. |
00:06:17.02
--> 00:06:18.22 |
His name is Bradley Manning, |
00:06:18.22
--> 00:06:22.16 |
and he was in solitary confinement for 10
months. |
00:06:22.16 -->
00:06:25.22 |
What do you say about the United States |
00:06:27.19
--> 00:06:30.06 |
and its role, once leading human rights |
00:06:30.06
--> 00:06:32.13 |
and now engaged in torture? |
00:06:36.02
--> 00:06:38.02 |
- Well, when you have torture |
00:06:38.02
--> 00:06:42.01 |
under dictatorship, it seems so normal. |
00:06:42.01
--> 00:06:44.08 |
Of course it's not
normal, it's horrible, |
00:06:44.08
--> 00:06:46.07 |
but when you have this kind of |
00:06:46.07
--> 00:06:49.03 |
problems under a democratic state, |
00:06:51.14
--> 00:06:53.19 |
and when you face people coming from |
00:06:53.19
--> 00:06:58.01 |
this government talking about human rights
and so forth, |
00:06:58.01
--> 00:06:59.23 |
it seems so ridiculous, you know. |
00:06:59.23
--> 00:07:02.07 |
I remember two years ago... |
00:07:02.07
--> 00:07:04.14 |
No, four years ago, I was invited |
00:07:04.14
--> 00:07:08.09 |
to Washington by an NGO to talk about |
00:07:08.09
--> 00:07:09.16 |
human rights in Tunisia, |
00:07:09.16
--> 00:07:11.18 |
and I was invited to meet |
00:07:13.13
--> 00:07:15.07 |
some important person |
00:07:16.19
--> 00:07:18.24 |
in the White House dealing with |
00:07:18.24
--> 00:07:20.13 |
human rights issues. |
00:07:20.13
--> 00:07:22.09 |
I said, "No, I'm not going to meet this
person |
00:07:22.09
--> 00:07:24.16 |
"because it
would be ridiculous to talk with this guy.", |
00:07:24.16
--> 00:07:28.03 |
knowing very well that he was probably |
00:07:28.03
--> 00:07:31.23 |
implicated in the Guantanamo problem. |
00:07:31.23
--> 00:07:36.08 |
You cannot take seriously who was implicated |
00:07:36.08
--> 00:07:37.24 |
in torture in his own country, |
00:07:37.24
--> 00:07:39.19 |
and then this guy is going to give you |
00:07:39.19
--> 00:07:41.22 |
some lesson about how to promote |
00:07:41.22
--> 00:07:43.05 |
human rights in Tunisia. |
00:07:43.05
--> 00:07:46.23 |
This is why I didn't accept to meet him. |
00:07:46.23
--> 00:07:48.20 |
- What is the status now of the intelligence |
00:07:48.20
--> 00:07:50.18 |
services in Tunisia? |
00:07:50.18
--> 00:07:52.12 |
As you are head of the armed forces, |
00:07:52.12
--> 00:07:54.10 |
you are commander-in-chief of the armed
forces, |
00:07:54.10
--> 00:07:58.08 |
are you also head of the intelligence
services? |
00:08:00.01
--> 00:08:01.12 |
- It's very difficult situation because |
00:08:01.12
--> 00:08:04.22 |
we have to tackle the problem very
cautiously. |
00:08:04.22
--> 00:08:07.18 |
We have to remove them one by one, |
00:08:11.02
--> 00:08:13.12 |
but most important thing for me is |
00:08:13.12
--> 00:08:17.10 |
we are going to face some hard issues |
00:08:17.10
--> 00:08:19.01 |
like the sal-a-fees
movement, |
00:08:19.01
--> 00:08:23.05 |
extreme right-wing movement here in Tunisia, |
00:08:23.05
--> 00:08:26.21 |
and they can be a danger to democracy, |
00:08:26.21
--> 00:08:29.12 |
and we have to tackle the problem |
00:08:29.12
--> 00:08:31.03 |
from the political point of view. |
00:08:31.03
--> 00:08:32.16 |
We have to discuss with them and so forth, |
00:08:32.16
--> 00:08:35.10 |
but some of them are not accepting to |
00:08:35.10
--> 00:08:37.22 |
have any kind of political discussion, |
00:08:37.22
--> 00:08:40.18 |
and some of them are going to present |
00:08:40.18
--> 00:08:42.19 |
a kind of threat against democracy. |
00:08:42.19
--> 00:08:44.17 |
So when I talk with
the |
00:08:46.02
--> 00:08:48.04 |
police and the army leaders, |
00:08:48.04
--> 00:08:50.19 |
I said, "Look, we have to take this
problem |
00:08:50.19
--> 00:08:52.20 |
"very
cautiously, but please, |
00:08:52.20
--> 00:08:55.01 |
"no more
torture, and fair trial |
00:08:55.01
--> 00:08:58.14 |
"like we have
had under the dictatorships." |
00:08:58.14
--> 00:09:00.07 |
We have to take this problem very seriously, |
00:09:00.07
--> 00:09:03.11 |
but to stick on the human rights values. |
00:09:03.11
--> 00:09:05.09 |
They watched me very... |
00:09:09.00
--> 00:09:11.01 |
Wondering if I was serious, |
00:09:11.01
--> 00:09:13.08 |
and I said, "Yes, I am serious. |
00:09:13.08
--> 00:09:16.04 |
"Yes, I am serious, no more torture in
Tunisia." |
00:09:16.04
--> 00:09:19.17 |
- Have you seen your own intelligence file |
00:09:20.16
--> 00:09:22.20 |
kept by Ben Ali now that you're
president, |
00:09:22.20
--> 00:09:25.20 |
the record of spying on you? |
00:09:25.20
--> 00:09:28.21 |
- Yes, I'm very curious about having |
00:09:28.21
--> 00:09:31.16 |
this file, but, in fact, I didn't have time, |
00:09:31.16
--> 00:09:34.05 |
but I have got some files about |
00:09:37.23
--> 00:09:40.23 |
political (mumbles) |
00:09:41.23
--> 00:09:44.06 |
now to the system, and I said, |
00:09:44.06
--> 00:09:46.22 |
"I'm not going to work with this kind
of (mumbles). |
00:09:46.22
--> 00:09:48.15 |
"I'm not going to threaten this guy |
00:09:48.15
--> 00:09:51.02 |
"with this
kind of tools." |
00:09:51.02
--> 00:09:54.00 |
I don't want to know about what happened |
00:09:54.00
--> 00:09:56.19 |
I'm not interested in threatening |
00:09:57.17
--> 00:10:01.17 |
my political opponent by the same tools |
00:10:01.17
--> 00:10:03.19 |
that was used against me. |
00:10:08.02 -->
00:10:10.23 |
- As WikiLeaks, and a publisher, of course, |
00:10:10.23
--> 00:10:14.00 |
we saw what happened in Egypt |
00:10:14.00
--> 00:10:16.13 |
when the am-dow-wah, the Egyptian secret service, |
00:10:16.13
--> 00:10:19.17 |
was looted, and these files came out, |
00:10:19.17
--> 00:10:21.08 |
and started to describing |
00:10:21.08
--> 00:10:22.23 |
what was really happening there, |
00:10:22.23
--> 00:10:24.19 |
and as someone who was following |
00:10:24.19
--> 00:10:28.09 |
this revolution in Egypt very, very closely |
00:10:28.09
--> 00:10:30.15 |
and trying to get out material |
00:10:30.15
--> 00:10:33.04 |
about Mubarak, and Suleman, and so on, |
00:10:33.04
--> 00:10:36.19 |
I knew the Egyptian Revolution had succeeded |
00:10:36.19
--> 00:10:38.21 |
in a very important way |
00:10:38.21
--> 00:10:43.02 |
when the archives of the am-daw-wah finally came out. |
00:10:43.02
--> 00:10:44.10 |
That was the end |
00:10:45.10
--> 00:10:47.08 |
of the secret police |
00:10:47.08
--> 00:10:50.01 |
or a new chapter in the secret police. |
00:10:50.01
--> 00:10:53.15 |
So it seems to me
that that is the true way |
00:10:55.01
--> 00:10:58.02 |
to make sure that one cannot go back, |
00:10:58.02
--> 00:11:01.04 |
is to reveal the inner secrets |
00:11:01.04
--> 00:11:03.23 |
of the previous regime to everyone, |
00:11:03.23
--> 00:11:05.19 |
so that everyone may take part in them, |
00:11:05.19
--> 00:11:09.09 |
even if this creates some kind of conflict |
00:11:09.09
--> 00:11:10.15 |
in the society. |
00:11:11.15
--> 00:11:14.15 |
Will you open the Tunisian archives? |
00:11:16.20
--> 00:11:18.06 |
- Yes, to historians, |
00:11:18.06
--> 00:11:20.01 |
yes, to historians because I think |
00:11:20.01
--> 00:11:23.16 |
it's our duty to know what happened, |
00:11:23.16
--> 00:11:25.24 |
but I am not interested in having |
00:11:25.24
--> 00:11:28.02 |
a knowing who will write, |
00:11:29.15
--> 00:11:31.07 |
who wrote about me. |
00:11:31.07
--> 00:11:33.05 |
It's useless, you know. |
00:11:34.11
--> 00:11:37.10 |
I would like to have the general picture, |
00:11:37.10
--> 00:11:38.24 |
what happened exactly, |
00:11:38.24
--> 00:11:40.14 |
how was the system, |
00:11:41.21
--> 00:11:43.13 |
but I'm not interested in |
00:11:43.13
--> 00:11:45.24 |
convicting people and saying, |
00:11:46.24
--> 00:11:49.17 |
"You have done this
and you have done that." |
00:11:49.17
--> 00:11:53.02 |
because it could be very, very dangerous. |
00:11:54.07
--> 00:11:57.11 |
It's important to know, to remember, |
00:11:57.11
--> 00:11:59.04 |
but, sometimes, it's also important |
00:11:59.04
--> 00:12:02.03 |
to not know and to forget. |
00:12:02.03
--> 00:12:04.14 |
- Is there pressure on you from other people |
00:12:04.14
--> 00:12:06.19 |
in the Tunisian government |
00:12:06.19
--> 00:12:09.00 |
to keep these files closed? |
00:12:10.17
--> 00:12:12.24 |
- No, no, there is no pressure. |
00:12:12.24
--> 00:12:14.13 |
This is my choice. |
00:12:14.13
--> 00:12:16.12 |
My choice is to be very careful |
00:12:16.12
--> 00:12:19.14 |
because, once again, we have to know, |
00:12:20.21
--> 00:12:24.09 |
but we have also to forget and to forgive. |
00:12:25.16
--> 00:12:28.18 |
- You said before there are certain red
lines |
00:12:28.18
--> 00:12:31.24 |
about information, that sometimes truth is
good. |
00:12:31.24
--> 00:12:34.12 |
Sometimes truth is bad, |
00:12:34.12
--> 00:12:37.24 |
and, recently, the Tunisian internet |
00:12:37.24
--> 00:12:40.18 |
has been censoring some webpages, |
00:12:41.22
--> 00:12:45.06 |
but in order to censor even one webpage, |
00:12:47.04
--> 00:12:49.15 |
you must spy on every request |
00:12:51.08
--> 00:12:53.07 |
that someone is making |
00:12:53.07
--> 00:12:55.17 |
to see if you should deny it. |
00:12:57.11
--> 00:12:59.13 |
Do you think that this is right, |
00:12:59.13
--> 00:13:01.16 |
that that is the correct line? |
00:13:01.16
--> 00:13:05.03 |
- (mumbles) I think that censorship |
00:13:05.03
--> 00:13:07.24 |
on the internet is useless, first, |
00:13:07.24
--> 00:13:10.05 |
first, it's useless, impossible, |
00:13:10.05
--> 00:13:12.16 |
and counterproductive. |
00:13:12.16
--> 00:13:14.15 |
As a human rights activist, |
00:13:14.15
--> 00:13:17.15 |
I prefer the side effect of total |
00:13:17.15
--> 00:13:19.20 |
freedom of expression, |
00:13:19.20
--> 00:13:22.13 |
to the good effects, if I might say, |
00:13:22.13
--> 00:13:24.02 |
to the censorship. |
00:13:24.02
--> 00:13:27.02 |
So I always said I
am against |
00:13:27.02
--> 00:13:29.07 |
any kind of censorship on internet |
00:13:29.07
--> 00:13:32.03 |
or on any other way of expression. |
00:13:36.14
--> 00:13:40.04 |
- I spoke two weeks ago to Hassan Nasrallah |
00:13:41.23
--> 00:13:43.13 |
and I asked him why |
00:13:44.17
--> 00:13:47.15 |
was there a difference between his position |
00:13:47.15
--> 00:13:51.04 |
for Syria and Tunisians position for Syria. |
00:13:52.14
--> 00:13:54.20 |
There seems to be a switch. |
00:13:56.02
--> 00:13:58.22 |
Hassan Nasrallah is soft on Syria. |
00:14:01.10
--> 00:14:03.16 |
Tunisia is soft on Bahrain. |
00:14:06.12
--> 00:14:08.15 |
Tunisia is hard on Syria, |
00:14:09.14
--> 00:14:12.22 |
and Hassan Nasrallah is hard on Bahrain, |
00:14:14.01
--> 00:14:15.05 |
on the Bahrainian
government |
00:14:15.05
--> 00:14:17.21 |
and the abuses happening there. |
00:14:17.21
--> 00:14:19.13 |
Why is this? |
00:14:19.13 -->
00:14:23.01 |
- I mean, the dictatorship that Syria, |
00:14:23.01
--> 00:14:24.17 |
that the Syrian people is suffering from |
00:14:24.17
--> 00:14:26.04 |
is exactly the same that |
00:14:26.04
--> 00:14:28.23 |
in Tunisia before the revolution. |
00:14:29.24
--> 00:14:32.13 |
This is why we feel very close |
00:14:32.13
--> 00:14:34.23 |
to the Syrian people who understand |
00:14:34.23
--> 00:14:37.09 |
what they are feeling because |
00:14:38.05
--> 00:14:40.01 |
they are fighting against corruption, |
00:14:40.01
--> 00:14:41.06 |
against brutality, |
00:14:41.06
--> 00:14:43.11 |
against the state of fear, |
00:14:46.13
--> 00:14:48.21 |
and we feel very, very close with them |
00:14:48.21
--> 00:14:51.18 |
because sometimes we feel that we have |
00:14:51.18
--> 00:14:54.04 |
also some
responsibility because |
00:14:54.04
--> 00:14:57.02 |
I can say that if we didn't have |
00:14:57.02
--> 00:14:58.14 |
the revolution here in Tunisia, |
00:14:58.14
--> 00:15:01.18 |
probably, it wouldn't happen in Syria or in
Egypt. |
00:15:01.18
--> 00:15:04.24 |
So we feel this
kind of responsibility. |
00:15:04.24
--> 00:15:06.13 |
We feel very close. |
00:15:06.13
--> 00:15:07.13 |
We understand them, |
00:15:07.13
--> 00:15:10.02 |
and we feel that their fight for democracy, |
00:15:10.02
--> 00:15:12.07 |
for human rights, is our own, |
00:15:12.07
--> 00:15:15.11 |
and we have to support them, |
00:15:15.11
--> 00:15:18.05 |
and we have to forget about this |
00:15:18.05
--> 00:15:20.23 |
Nasrallah and the people like him |
00:15:22.05
--> 00:15:23.22 |
think that Syria is, |
00:15:25.01
--> 00:15:28.02 |
because he's against Israel, |
00:15:28.02
--> 00:15:31.16 |
they can forgive to this dictatorship
everything, |
00:15:31.16
--> 00:15:33.22 |
but here in Tunisia, we don't have this problem. |
00:15:33.22
--> 00:15:35.14 |
We are not interested in the fight |
00:15:35.14
--> 00:15:38.11 |
between Israel and Syria. |
00:15:38.11
--> 00:15:41.20 |
What is important to us is that this |
00:15:41.20
--> 00:15:45.19 |
people is suffering
from what we suffered |
00:15:45.19
--> 00:15:48.02 |
so much from, and this is why we |
00:15:48.02
--> 00:15:51.15 |
totally support Syria, the Syrian people |
00:15:51.15
--> 00:15:53.05 |
against his dictatorship, |
00:15:53.05
--> 00:15:57.18 |
as well, as you know, we fight against our
own, |
00:15:57.18
--> 00:15:59.16 |
so I can't
understand that here in Tunisia, |
00:15:59.16
--> 00:16:01.24 |
because we have some people here in Tunisia |
00:16:01.24
--> 00:16:04.05 |
supporting the Syrian dictatorship |
00:16:04.05
--> 00:16:06.17 |
saying it's patriotic dictatorship, |
00:16:06.17
--> 00:16:10.15 |
and we do know that there's no patriotic
dictatorship. |
00:16:10.15
--> 00:16:12.01 |
There's no good dictatorship. |
00:16:12.01
--> 00:16:14.13 |
Dictatorship is dictatorship, |
00:16:14.13
--> 00:16:16.01 |
corrupted, brutal, |
00:16:19.07
--> 00:16:21.04 |
and against his people, |
00:16:22.14
--> 00:16:24.16 |
and really, I can't understand |
00:16:24.16
--> 00:16:26.04 |
the position of Nasrallah. |
00:16:26.04
--> 00:16:28.11 |
I can tell you that Nasrallah was very, very |
00:16:28.11
--> 00:16:30.03 |
popular after the, you know, |
00:16:30.03
--> 00:16:31.23 |
in 2006 because of the |
00:16:33.18
--> 00:16:35.13 |
battle against Israel, |
00:16:38.00
--> 00:16:41.10 |
but now, his popularity is completely |
00:16:41.10
--> 00:16:43.10 |
finished here in Tunisia |
00:16:44.07
--> 00:16:46.06 |
and the whole Arab world. |
00:16:46.06
--> 00:16:49.05 |
- You have offered the ruler of Syria, |
00:16:49.05
--> 00:16:52.19 |
Bashar al-Assad, asylum in Tunisia, |
00:16:52.19
--> 00:16:55.15 |
but is that really a credible offer? |
00:16:55.15
--> 00:16:57.06 |
- What's important for us |
00:16:57.06
--> 00:17:00.06 |
is that the bloodshed ends in Syria. |
00:17:01.03
--> 00:17:02.07 |
This is the most important thing. |
00:17:02.07
--> 00:17:04.16 |
This is why I said, "Look, we have the |
00:17:04.16
--> 00:17:06.07 |
"eminent
scenario. |
00:17:06.07
--> 00:17:07.24 |
"It could be a good solution for |
00:17:07.24
--> 00:17:10.11 |
"Syrian people.", and they said, |
00:17:10.11
--> 00:17:13.21 |
"Why this guy not go
to Russia.", |
00:17:13.21
--> 00:17:15.16 |
and the Russians said, "We are not
interested |
00:17:15.16
--> 00:17:17.23 |
"in having
him.", and a journalist asked me, |
00:17:17.23 -->
00:17:21.13 |
"Would you be interested in having this
man if", |
00:17:21.13
--> 00:17:25.10 |
and I said, "Of course, if this would
be a solution", |
00:17:25.10
--> 00:17:27.07 |
but I know, probably, you know |
00:17:27.07
--> 00:17:29.11 |
also that Assad
will never ask |
00:17:29.11
--> 00:17:31.14 |
asylum in Tunisia, so it's |
00:17:31.14
--> 00:17:33.06 |
not credible question, |
00:17:33.06
--> 00:17:35.14 |
and not a credible position. |
00:17:37.04
--> 00:17:40.21 |
Of course, he would probably flee to Russia |
00:17:40.21
--> 00:17:42.13 |
or to any other country, |
00:17:42.13
--> 00:17:44.16 |
but never to Tunisia. |
00:17:44.16
--> 00:17:46.14 |
- You held this conference recently in
Tunisia |
00:17:46.14
--> 00:17:48.16 |
at the Friends of Syria |
00:17:48.16
--> 00:17:50.11 |
which include, and coming to that |
00:17:50.11
--> 00:17:52.09 |
was Hillary Clinton and many |
00:17:52.09
--> 00:17:55.14 |
other powerful people from the West |
00:17:55.14
--> 00:17:57.08 |
and from the region. |
00:17:57.08 -->
00:18:00.14 |
Information that we released recently |
00:18:00.14
--> 00:18:03.10 |
showed that the US security sector |
00:18:05.06
--> 00:18:08.05 |
is of the belief that there are US Special
Forces |
00:18:08.05
--> 00:18:11.13 |
already in Syria and that arms and money |
00:18:11.13
--> 00:18:14.21 |
flow into Syria to the Syrian resistance. |
00:18:14.21
--> 00:18:18.12 |
You have said that you do not believe |
00:18:18.12
--> 00:18:20.07 |
in foreign intervention for Syria, |
00:18:20.07
--> 00:18:21.24 |
and you do not believe that Tunisia |
00:18:21.24
--> 00:18:25.16 |
should supply arms to the Syrian resistance, |
00:18:25.16
--> 00:18:28.20 |
but what about intelligence support, |
00:18:28.20
--> 00:18:30.13 |
what about training, |
00:18:30.13
--> 00:18:33.01 |
weapons training within Syria? |
00:18:34.03
--> 00:18:36.09 |
Will Tunisia also offer a base |
00:18:36.09
--> 00:18:38.11 |
to the Syrian opposition? |
00:18:42.21
--> 00:18:44.22 |
- As I told you, we are not supporting |
00:18:44.22
--> 00:18:48.11 |
any kind of foreign intervention in Syria. |
00:18:48.11
--> 00:18:51.07 |
I do believe that giving weapons to Syrians |
00:18:51.07
--> 00:18:53.01 |
would lead to civil war. |
00:18:53.01
--> 00:18:54.24 |
I think it's not a good choice. |
00:18:54.24
--> 00:18:57.04 |
I still believe that the only solution |
00:18:57.04
--> 00:18:59.04 |
must be political, |
00:18:59.04
--> 00:19:01.23 |
and that we have to find a common |
00:19:04.06
--> 00:19:06.23 |
ground between opposition and the regime. |
00:19:06.23 -->
00:19:09.10 |
I still believe that the only solution |
00:19:09.10
--> 00:19:11.02 |
is the Yemeni scenario. |
00:19:11.02
--> 00:19:12.21 |
This is my position,
this is the position |
00:19:12.21
--> 00:19:14.06 |
of Tunisia, and of course, |
00:19:14.06 -->
00:19:15.21 |
we are against any kind of intervention |
00:19:15.21
--> 00:19:17.19 |
wherever it comes from. |
00:19:19.15
--> 00:19:23.05 |
- Your party received 8.7% of the vote |
00:19:24.07
--> 00:19:26.17 |
during the Tunisian election, |
00:19:26.17 -->
00:19:29.15 |
and the more Islamic party received |
00:19:31.02
--> 00:19:34.15 |
37% of the vote during that election, |
00:19:36.05
--> 00:19:39.15 |
but you personally have 60% approval |
00:19:40.22
--> 00:19:42.23 |
by the Tunisian public. |
00:19:42.23
--> 00:19:46.15 |
What percent of power do you think you have? |
00:19:49.02
--> 00:19:53.12 |
- Well, let me tell you, first, in the West, |
00:19:53.12
--> 00:19:55.15 |
people think that Tunisia |
00:19:56.11
--> 00:19:59.02 |
and Egypt the political Islamist |
00:20:01.13
--> 00:20:04.06 |
is prevailing on democracy, |
00:20:04.06
--> 00:20:06.10 |
and it's exactly the contrary. |
00:20:06.10
--> 00:20:08.14 |
I think that we here in Tunisia |
00:20:08.14
--> 00:20:11.06 |
the center part of
the spectrum, |
00:20:12.06
--> 00:20:14.11 |
the Islamist part, |
00:20:14.11
--> 00:20:16.14 |
the central part of the spectrum, |
00:20:16.14
--> 00:20:18.16 |
the Islamist spectrum |
00:20:18.16
--> 00:20:21.12 |
is now part of the democratic system |
00:20:21.12
--> 00:20:22.23 |
and the democratic game, |
00:20:22.23
--> 00:20:25.20 |
so I can say that
democracy prevails |
00:20:25.20
--> 00:20:27.09 |
on Islamic movement |
00:20:30.08
--> 00:20:32.24 |
because the Islamist became democrats, |
00:20:32.24
--> 00:20:35.03 |
and we did as a (mumbles). |
00:20:35.03
--> 00:20:39.08 |
We didn't become Islamists. (talking over each other) |
00:20:39.08
--> 00:20:40.18 |
- This is a move. |
00:20:40.18
--> 00:20:42.10 |
- This is important because |
00:20:42.10
--> 00:20:43.18 |
I'm very surprised |
00:20:43.18
--> 00:20:46.07 |
the way that the Western people |
00:20:46.07
--> 00:20:49.02 |
are looking to Tunisia or to Egypt |
00:20:50.04
--> 00:20:53.03 |
saying, "Look, now Islamists are |
00:20:53.03
--> 00:20:55.09 |
"in the
government and they |
00:20:56.07
--> 00:20:57.24 |
"have the
majority in the parliament." |
00:20:57.24
--> 00:20:59.11 |
Yes, they have the majority in the
parliament, |
00:20:59.11
--> 00:21:01.02 |
but in a democratic parliament, |
00:21:01.02
--> 00:21:02.13 |
and they were elected |
00:21:02.13
--> 00:21:05.08 |
by democratic elections, |
00:21:05.08
--> 00:21:06.14 |
and now they are playing |
00:21:06.14
--> 00:21:09.23 |
the part of the democratic game. |
00:21:09.23
--> 00:21:12.21 |
This is why I can say that |
00:21:12.21
--> 00:21:16.07 |
democracy prevails after the revolution |
00:21:16.07
--> 00:21:17.20 |
and not the Islamist movement, |
00:21:17.20
--> 00:21:20.05 |
even if the Islamsists
were elected |
00:21:20.05
--> 00:21:22.13 |
more than the seculars in the government. |
00:21:22.13
--> 00:21:24.01 |
This very, very important. |
00:21:24.01
--> 00:21:26.05 |
As far as I'm concerned, |
00:21:26.05
--> 00:21:28.23 |
I think the most important thing, |
00:21:31.22
--> 00:21:34.17 |
power I have is a symbolic one |
00:21:34.17
--> 00:21:36.22 |
because here in Tunisia, I'm supposed to be |
00:21:36.22
--> 00:21:39.15 |
the president of all Tunisians, |
00:21:39.15
--> 00:21:42.23 |
Islamists, seculars, and I'm trying |
00:21:42.23
--> 00:21:47.02 |
to play this role of being the president |
00:21:47.02
--> 00:21:49.06 |
of all Tunisia, having a discussion |
00:21:49.06
--> 00:21:50.24 |
with all political parties, |
00:21:50.24
--> 00:21:53.18 |
trying to get people closer, |
00:21:53.18
--> 00:21:55.08 |
and this is very, very important, |
00:21:55.08
--> 00:21:56.14 |
and this is not |
00:21:57.10
--> 00:22:00.07 |
even known that this is the most |
00:22:00.07
--> 00:22:02.18 |
important function that I have. |
00:22:02.18
--> 00:22:04.07 |
- So I imagine this
is |
00:22:04.07
--> 00:22:05.22 |
very hard for you. |
00:22:05.22
--> 00:22:07.24 |
The way I see things and the leaders |
00:22:07.24
--> 00:22:11.06 |
I have dealt with, and in my position also, |
00:22:11.06
--> 00:22:14.07 |
there are so many forced moves |
00:22:14.07
--> 00:22:16.05 |
that one had to suffer, |
00:22:17.06
--> 00:22:19.07 |
one is forced by a situation, |
00:22:19.07
--> 00:22:22.09 |
or limited ability to act in a certain way, |
00:22:22.09
--> 00:22:24.16 |
even though your conscience wants to act |
00:22:24.16
--> 00:22:26.08 |
in another way. |
00:22:26.08
--> 00:22:29.15 |
Were you surprised by the lack of power |
00:22:30.16
--> 00:22:32.12 |
in becoming president, |
00:22:32.12
--> 00:22:35.12 |
the lack of ability to push the program |
00:22:35.12
--> 00:22:36.21 |
you wanted to push, |
00:22:36.21
--> 00:22:39.16 |
the compromises you had to make? |
00:22:39.16
--> 00:22:41.16 |
- Yes, I think, I'm discovering |
00:22:41.16
--> 00:22:44.09 |
the fact to be head of state doesn't mean |
00:22:44.09
--> 00:22:46.11 |
you have all the power, |
00:22:46.11
--> 00:22:49.07 |
and my frustration is now probably |
00:22:50.03
--> 00:22:53.04 |
the most important feeling I have every day. |
00:22:53.04
--> 00:22:55.07 |
I can just give you one example. |
00:22:55.07
--> 00:22:57.09 |
Now we are tackling huge problem |
00:22:57.09
--> 00:22:59.12 |
of Bar-dad He-mode-ee. |
00:22:59.12
--> 00:23:02.12 |
He's in Tunisia having hunger strike |
00:23:04.15
--> 00:23:07.17 |
because he's asking for his release, |
00:23:07.17
--> 00:23:09.03 |
but I can't release him because |
00:23:09.03
--> 00:23:11.09 |
Libya is asking for him, |
00:23:11.09
--> 00:23:13.14 |
and we have a lot of common interests |
00:23:13.14
--> 00:23:17.03 |
with Libya, but given back this man to Libya |
00:23:17.03
--> 00:23:20.03 |
means he could have an unfair trial, |
00:23:21.21
--> 00:23:24.07 |
and I told my Libyan friend |
00:23:24.07
--> 00:23:26.10 |
that the honor of
Tunisia and my |
00:23:26.10
--> 00:23:28.15 |
self honor as
human rights activist |
00:23:28.15 -->
00:23:31.15 |
I can't just give this man to Libya, |
00:23:35.24
--> 00:23:38.09 |
but I'm facing huge pressure |
00:23:38.09
--> 00:23:41.20 |
from outside and inside the country |
00:23:41.20
--> 00:23:44.10 |
to give this man to Libya, |
00:23:44.10
--> 00:23:46.21 |
and I have every day to say, "No, no, |
00:23:46.21
--> 00:23:48.10 |
"we have to
stick to our position.", |
00:23:48.10
--> 00:23:51.17 |
and it's very difficult to conciliate |
00:23:51.17
--> 00:23:54.03 |
the human rights activists' opinions |
00:23:54.03
--> 00:23:57.10 |
and the duty of head of state. |
00:23:57.10
--> 00:24:00.02 |
- What else has changed for you? |
00:24:01.22
--> 00:24:04.06 |
- Well, I'm still the same person. |
00:24:04.06
--> 00:24:05.21 |
I'm still the human rights activist. |
00:24:05.21
--> 00:24:08.06 |
I still believe in my values, |
00:24:09.04
--> 00:24:13.06 |
and I try to be faithful to all these
values. |
00:24:13.06
--> 00:24:16.05 |
I think I'm not going to change. |
00:24:16.05
--> 00:24:18.13 |
I will stick to my opinions. |
00:24:19.13
--> 00:24:21.20 |
Of course, its' sometimes very difficult |
00:24:21.20
--> 00:24:24.21 |
because I have also to remember |
00:24:24.21
--> 00:24:26.12 |
that I'm head of state, |
00:24:26.12
--> 00:24:28.04 |
and I have to be very careful when I talk. |
00:24:28.04
--> 00:24:30.18 |
This is sometimes very painful, |
00:24:30.18
--> 00:24:33.04 |
but I'm still, as I told you, |
00:24:35.04
--> 00:24:38.04 |
I am convinced that I have to be |
00:24:38.04
--> 00:24:39.24 |
faithful to my values, |
00:24:39.24
--> 00:24:43.16 |
and people are expecting me to be the same
person, |
00:24:43.16
--> 00:24:44.22 |
and I will try. |
00:24:47.04
--> 00:24:51.09 |
I try to be the head of state of Tunisia, |
00:24:51.09
--> 00:24:55.00 |
but also the human right
activist I was always. |
00:24:55.00
--> 00:24:57.23 |
- Thank you very much, Mr. President. |
00:24:57.23
--> 00:25:00.01 |
- As I told you, I'm very grateful |
00:25:00.01
--> 00:25:01.16 |
to all what you have done |
00:25:01.16
--> 00:25:04.03 |
for promoting human rights, |
00:25:04.03
--> 00:25:08.14 |
truth, and I admire and support your
efforts, |
00:25:08.14
--> 00:25:11.16 |
and please, I wish you all the best. |
00:25:11.16
--> 00:25:14.19 |
I hope to see you once in Tunisia |
00:25:14.19
--> 00:25:16.19 |
if you can come. |
00:25:16.19
--> 00:25:18.02 |
You will be welcome here |
00:25:18.02
--> 00:25:21.01 |
in this new democratic country. |
00:25:21.01
--> 00:25:23.23 |
- Thank you, and thank you for the crew |
00:25:23.23
--> 00:25:27.13 |
at both ends for arranging this, good luck. |
00:25:28.13
--> 00:25:29.13 |
- Thank you. |
00:25:30.17
--> 00:25:32.21 |
So goodbye, and good luck. |
00:25:34.04
--> 00:25:35.24 |
(upbeat music) |
00:25:35.24
--> 00:25:37.24 |
♫ Wiki, wiki, wiki, wiki, |
00:25:37.24
--> 00:25:40.11 |
♫ wiki, wiki, wiki, wiki |
00:25:40.11
--> 00:25:43.03 |
♫ wiki, wiki, wiki, wiki |
00:25:43.03
--> 00:25:45.20 |
♫ wiki, wiki, wiki, wiki |
00:25:45.20
--> 00:25:48.21 |
♫ wiki, wiki, wiki, wiki |
00:25:48.21
--> 00:25:53.00 |
♫ wiki, wiki, wiki, wiki ♫ |