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Precis
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This war will be etched in
the memories of generations to come: the brutality of Hamas's October 7
attack, and the ferocity of Israel's retaliation. In this Four Corners, ABC’s Global Affairs
Editor John Lyons asks
the tough questions; challenging some of Israel’s most powerful political and
military voices about the country’s strategy and intentions. The result is an engaging
interview-led piece of public interest journalism about one of the most
controversial wars of modern times. Former prime minister Ehud
Barak says Benjamin Netanyahu can’t be trusted, and cabinet minister Avi
Dichter makes a grave prediction about the conflict’s future. Is there any way out of
what's beginning to look like the forever war? |
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4
Corners GFX logo |
Series music |
00:00 |
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Episode
teaser |
Music |
00:10 |
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Destroyed
Gaza |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: For five months now, our screens
have been bombarded by images depicting Israel’s air and ground assault on
Gaza. This extraordinary footage shows just how widespread that destruction
has been. Israel is still denying foreign journalists independent access to
Gaza. We’re in Israel, about a kilometre from the border. |
00:16 |
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Lyons
to camera. Super: |
Generations of historians will study this Gaza war -- the
violence of Hamas' October 7 attack, and the unparalleled ferocity of
Israel's retaliation, which left tens of thousands of Palestinians dead and
vast sections of Gaza reduced to rubble. |
00:42 |
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Aerial.
Destroyed Gaza |
One thing they'll focus on will be Israel's response. Was
it proportionate or was it driven by rage, humiliation, and revenge? |
01:02 |
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Was it legitimate self-defence or did it involve the
commission of war crimes, as Israel's detractors around the world have
alleged? |
01:13 |
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Lyons
to camera |
And
would the war jolt the international community into pushing for something
that Israel's leadership had for so long resisted: a Palestinian state? |
01:23 |
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Interview
set ups and question montage INTERCUT with Destruction of Gaza |
In
this Four Corners we go head to head with insiders at the centre of Israel’s
defence and intelligence establishment – a former Prime Minister, two
ex-intelligence chiefs, a current cabinet minister, and a one-time Israeli
army commander. We challenge them about one of the most controversial wars in
modern times. |
01:32 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Why has the most powerful army in the Middle East – Israel
-- killed so many children? |
02:00 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Do you think that revenge has become a major factor in
Israel's response? TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: No. |
02:05 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Can Hamas be destroyed? |
02:10 |
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AVI
DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: Hamas as a military organisation
will be destroyed. |
02:12 |
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TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: They hate us. We saw the results.
The idea of eradicating Hamas completely from Gaza is a just cause. |
02:15 |
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EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I don't think that anyone made a
deliberate decision to kill children. |
02:25 |
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YEHUDA
SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: That the IDF is doing everything to avoid
civilian casualties is a blunt lie. Straight lie. |
02:30 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Gaza was already one of the most desperate places on earth.
Now uninhabitable, plagued by mass starvation and disease. |
02:36 |
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DALAL
IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION: When I look at it, Israel
is committing a series of war crimes. |
02:48 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Some warn that Israel’s fierce response to October 7 will
have sown seeds of hatred for generations to come. Is there a way out of
what's beginning to look like the forever war? |
02:53 |
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Title:
THE FOREVER WAR |
Music
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03:09 |
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Security
wall |
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03:17 |
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October
7 footage |
IDF SOLDIER: In front of 50 line it shows that there are
currently twelve people running towards the fence. There are two motorcycles,
roger? We need an answer. Commander.
Commander, we are at war! |
03:26 |
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Hamas
footage |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: October 7 was the deadliest day in
Israel’s history. |
03:38 |
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Sunrise |
AVI DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: Saturday
morning, it was about six o'clock I woke up, |
03:47 |
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Dichter
interview 100%. Super: |
I got to prepare myself to go to the beach to swim. About
20 minutes later I heard noises of Iron Dome rockets far away. |
03:54 |
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Rockets
over houses |
As someone who lives in Ashkelon I'm familiar with the
noises of rockets of Iron Dome. |
04:04 |
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Dichter
100% |
It was very odd because Iron Dome before a siren, it's
never happened before. |
04:14 |
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Rockets
over houses |
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04:21 |
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AMI AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: I got a telephone call
from my son. He asked me, |
04:27 |
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Ayalon
interview 100%. Super: |
what
is the code in order to open the safe here in my home? I said, why do you
need the code? And said he need his gun because his gun is in our safe. And then
said there is a war. And I said, what? |
04:30 |
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Hole
cut in security fence. 7 October footage, Hamas attack |
Music |
04:47 |
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YEHUDA SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: I was watching
all the horrible videos coming out of the south, |
05:02 |
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Shaul
interview 100%. Super: |
and I became physically sick. |
05:07 |
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Hamas
attack on music festival |
The level of dehumanisation? The brutality, yeah. It was
just beyond belief. |
05:11 |
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Soldiers
and medics carry bodies |
Music |
05:29 |
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JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: What went wrong? |
05:32 |
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Dichter
100% |
AVI DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER:
Everything. Literally everything. |
05:33 |
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Burnt
out and attacked cars by side of road |
Music |
05:37 |
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EHUD BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: It became clear
that that's the worst failure of our intelligence and operational forces |
04:41 |
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Barak
100%. Super: |
since the establishment of the state of Israel. |
05:48 |
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Door
riddled with bullet holes |
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05:50 |
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Netanyahu
address |
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: "Israel
is at war..." ABDALJAWAD OMAR, ANALYST & LECTURER, BIRZEIT
UNIVERSITY: From the beginning of the first moment, I knew that |
05:56 |
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Omar
interview 100%. Super: |
such a big event will also bring a ferocious Israel and a
ferocious Israeli response. |
06:00 |
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Netanyahu
address |
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: "They
have made a mistake of historic proportions." |
06:07 |
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Dichter
100% |
AVI DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: They will
get cemeteries. That's what Hamas is going to get. I'm telling you the
tunnels -- they dug tunnels -- I'm telling you they dug the biggest cemetery
in the world. |
06:11 |
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Israeli
Army mobilises |
Music |
06:23 |
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YEHUDA SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: You know, the
beginning, I was also full of rage. I also had the feeling that these are
animals, we need to go there and bomb the hell out of them. |
06:29 |
|
Shaul
100% |
But then you stop for a second and you think, and you say
to yourself, what did we think is going to happen after 16 years of siege. |
06:46 |
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IDF
footage |
AMIRA HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ:
I was surprised and not surprised, because I kept warning that people cannot
stand the accumulated cruelty, accumulated over so many decades. |
06:58 |
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Hass
interview 100%. Super: |
And somehow there will be an explosion. Somehow there
will be an outburst. I couldn't imagine what it would be, but there it came. |
07:11 |
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Destroyed
homes |
Music |
07:20 |
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GFX
Map showing Occupied Territories |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: The occupied Palestinian territory
is made up of three parts – Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Gaza,
under Israeli blockade since the militant group Hamas seized power in 2007.
And the West Bank, run by the moderate Palestinian Authority – although more
than 700,000 Israeli settlers also now live there, protected by Israeli
soldiers. |
07:48 |
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West
Bank dividing wall and checkpoints |
The architecture of occupation is brutalist. Palestinians
require permits to enter or leave the West Bank. There are scores of fixed
checkpoints, pop-up checkpoints;
internal checkpoints, occasional checkpoints, roadblocks, earth mounds, road
gates, walls, fortified barriers and trenches. More than 600 physical
obstacles and about 100 different permits in total. |
08:20 |
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Security
cameras |
And everywhere, Big Brother surveillance cameras armed
with face recognition technologies. Israel
says it's for security. |
08:51 |
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Israeli
soldiers |
19-year old Israeli soldiers in the West Bank wield
absolute power. Even if they kill an innocent Palestinian, they’ll rarely
face serious consequences. |
09:03 |
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Lyons
to camera |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: This is Qalandia checkpoint, the
main checkpoint between Jerusalem that way, and Ramallah in the West Bank
that way. Now a place like this shows the tyranny of occupation. We've just
seen a Palestinian man come down here and try to go through that gate and
that security person behind me, he said no to him. He wouldn't let him, and
they closed the gate. Now, that Palestinian may have to walk now two or three
hours all the way around there just to get through that gate, which they've
just decided to reopen. It's the complete unpredictability. It's the tyranny.
It's these concrete enforcers of occupation. This is part of what grinds down
Palestinians, is that they never know at the checkpoint what soldier, what
police officer, is going to let them through or not let them through. |
09:15 |
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Security
surveillance tower |
Music |
09:59 |
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JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: You've spent a lot of time studying
this obviously as head of Shin Bet. Could you describe what is the reality
for Palestinians here? |
10:04 |
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Ayalon
interview 100% |
AMI AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: A life of people who
dream about freedom, and don't see it. whether we like it or not, we control
the life of millions. |
10:12 |
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Super: |
Music
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10:26 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: If you were a Palestinian living in the West Bank or Gaza,
what would your view be of Israel? AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: I would fight against Israel in order to
achieve my liberty. |
10:31 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: How would you fight? How dirty? |
10:43 |
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AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: I would do everything in order to achieve my
liberty. And that's it. |
10:48 |
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Gaza
market |
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10:52 |
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ABDALJAWAD OMAR, ANALYST & LECTURER, BIRZEIT
UNIVERSITY: Life for us is struggling not to drown. |
10:58 |
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Omar
interview 100% |
It's
basically continuing on survival mode all the time. |
11:02 |
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Super: |
Music
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11:06 |
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ABDALJAWAD
OMAR, ANALYST & LECTURER, BIRZEIT UNIVERSITY: It's to have your life
being determined by another people, |
11:12 |
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Israeli
soldiers at checkpoint |
what
type of economy you can have, who you can fall in love with and live with.
The ability of somebody else to humiliate you on a daily basis, just passing
through a checkpoint. |
11:15 |
|
Omar
interview 100% |
We
sometimes feel like we live in this field of targets. I've seen personally when an Israeli sniper
hit one of my friends and high-fived his buddy that he got the target. |
11:29 |
|
Dalal
interview 1005 |
DALAL
IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION: Life under occupation is
basically being expected to normalise with the abnormal. |
11:39 |
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Super: |
Music |
11:45 |
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JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: What's it like having a gun pointed
at you? DALAL IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION:
It's totally abnormal. |
11:50 |
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It's not civilised to say the least. If I want to take my
kids over the weekend to visit their grandma who lives 40 minutes away from
Ramallah, we have to pass two checkpoints. We have to stop, get checked with
the soldiers pointing the guns at the backseat where my kids are terrified
and they start to ask questions. |
11:55 |
|
Amira
Hass interview 100% |
AMIRA
HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ: Any moment the Israelis
may come and declare that your land is state land. So you cannot reach it and
then see an Israeli settlement being built there: your piece of land, the
trees that you grandfather planted. |
12:16 |
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Super: |
Music |
12:28 |
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AMIRA HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ: You are not allowed to connect, for example, to the water system while a
nearby Israeli outpost immediately drowns in greenery. |
12:31 |
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Gaza
GVs |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: If life in the West Bank was
difficult, the daily life in Gaza was worse. Israel’s siege condemned Gaza’s
2.3-million Palestinians to slow suffocation in what many describe as the
world's largest open-air prison. |
12:47 |
|
Men
carry injured man, Israeli rockets |
Every so often, Gaza would erupt – with public protest or
barrages of rockets – and Israel would come down even harder. |
13:07 |
|
Gaza
GVs |
DALAL IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION:
Can you imagine that 2.3 million civilians and they were deprived from
enjoying the basic right of having clean water, electricity. |
13:30 |
|
Iriqat
100% |
Four hours of electricity a day. Internet services, best
case scenario, 2G services. Just because Israel wants that. |
13:42 |
|
Gaza
GVs |
ABDALJAWAD OMAR, ANALYST & LECTURER, BIRZEIT
UNIVERSITY: What was the choice of Palestinians before October 7th? No legal
respite, no diplomatic resolution, |
13:52 |
|
Omar
100% |
no
horizon for two state solution or one state solution, no efficacy for non-violence
action. |
14:01 |
|
Israeli
flags fly by security wall/Checkpoint |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Is there a certain rationale to Israel's security argument? |
14:14 |
|
Iriqat
100% |
DALAL
IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION: I don't think it's
rational. |
14:17 |
|
Gaza
flag on flies on seawall. Gaza GVs |
If we provide those people with the normal, with the
basic human rights, why would they resort to anything else? As long as Israel
continues to occupy the Palestinians and deprive them and suffocate them, |
14:19 |
|
Iriqat
100% |
they
should not expect, but for more violence. |
14:36 |
|
Barak
interview 100% |
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Look, I once was asked some 30 years ago
what I have been doing if I were a Palestinian, and 30 years ago I was new
enough in politics to tell the truth -- that if I were born Palestinian
probably would've joined one of the terror organisations. |
14:41 |
|
Super: |
Music
|
15:01 |
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|
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Believe
me, I fully understand. There are things that are painful for the other side.
And if you look at them isolated from the rest of the picture, they sound
terrible. Israel is living genuinely in a very tough neighbourhood. I once compared
it to a villa in the jungle. Inside your villa you can enjoy classical
musical, your jacuzzi. Once you step the first step you go out of your door,
you have to be ready to pull the trigger within a split of a second, otherwise
you would not survive. |
15:06 |
|
|
The
real challenge when we look at it from a wider perspective is you cannot
avoid human pain and damage along such conflict, but you can think honestly
about how to solve it rather to dig deeper into the hole. |
15:39 |
|
Destroyed
homes |
Music
|
15:56 |
|
|
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: The rampage by Hamas on October 7 shook Israelis to their
core. Within hours Israel was bombing Gaza. |
16:04 |
|
Israeli
bombing of Gaza |
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: It was clear from day one that we will
have to deploy tens of thousands of pairs of boots on the ground. Once the
order was given to the army, they're doing it well, |
16:13 |
|
Barak
interview 100% |
but there are significant achievements even in developing
tactics along the way to fight with the tunnels that were much more developed
kind of system than we assessed at the beginning. |
16:32 |
|
Women
holding dead children |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Since October more
than 30,000 Gazans have been killed, two thirds of them women and children. Why
did Israel |
16:47 |
|
Livni
interview 100% |
need to kill so many people in Gaza? |
16:59 |
|
|
TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: We never target civilians. JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: You may not be targeting them, but they're dying in their
tens of thousands. |
17:02 |
|
|
TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: Because they live – or those that
control their life are these terrorists that are exploiting the existence. |
17:08 |
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|
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Israel's dropping the bombs. |
17:19 |
|
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TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: We have no other alternative. I
try to avoid these casualties and I can't. |
17:22 |
|
Super: |
Music
|
17:27 |
|
|
TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: I was in the Israeli security
cabinet and I know how the Israeli army is working, and this targeting in
accordance every target is getting the approval of the justice ministry. And
if the army can approve that this is a legitimate target, it is. |
17:33 |
|
Bombing
of Gaza |
AVI DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: Gaza Strip
it's 350 square kilometre, that's it. |
17:53 |
|
Dichter
100% |
All
in all about 40,000 terrorists - paid as terrorists trained as terrorists. |
17:59 |
|
Dichter
interview 100%. Super: |
Music
|
18:05 |
|
|
AVI
DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: You have to take into account the
surrounding of those terrorists. It's many, many thousands, tens of thousands
of terrorists. |
18:12 |
|
Ayalon
interview 100% |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Mr. Ayalon, one thing I don't understand is why does the
most powerful military in the Middle East -- Israel -- backed by the most
powerful military the world's ever seen -- the United States -- need to kill
so many children. AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: We don't need to. |
18:21 |
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JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: But you are. |
18:38 |
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AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: There was no war like this ever fought. |
18:40 |
|
Bombing
of Gaza, injured civilians |
We
are when we fight Hamas, it is the most populated battlefield ever fought, in
the history of wars. And in order to achieve our military goals, we have to
hit military targets. But in a populated area in which we are fighting in
Gaza, it is almost impossible to hit a military target without killing or
hitting civilians. |
18:46 |
|
Ayalon
100%. Super: |
Hamas
deliberately are using civil targets, civilian targets, schools, hospitals,
UN institutions, in order to place military targets in civilian institutions,
and even according to international law, we have the right to hit the
military installation if it is used deliberately. So Hamas is doing
everything in order for us to kill or to use their people as a human shield. |
19:23 |
|
Barak
interview 100% |
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I
don't think that anyone made a deliberate decision to kill children. |
20:08 |
|
Super: |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: I'm not saying it was a deliberate decision. I'm asking why
did the most powerful army kill so many children? EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: No, I want to describe it in a different
way. So Israel called upon the population to leave the area for some two or
three weeks repeatedly. |
20:12 |
|
Aftermath
of Israeli bombing of Gaza |
YEHUDA
SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: We are told that the IDF doing everything
to avoid civilian casualties is a blunt lie. Straight lie. It's a hard
statement to say about my own army, but it's the truth. |
20:29 |
|
Super: |
Music
|
20:44 |
|
Bombing
of civilian buildings. Stills of injured children |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Yehuda Shaul, a former Israeli Army commander, says Israeli
military strategy has been driven, for the past 15 years, by a doctrine of
deterrence through disproportionate destruction. |
20:49 |
|
|
YEHUDA
SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: Theoretically, it's possible to bomb
thousands of legitimate targets. What matters is the devil is in the details.
We don't have enough evidence coming from soldiers coming out of Gaza in this
war yet, but we know from past operations, |
21:06 |
|
Shaul
interview |
from
before October 7 in terms of how the IDF fights in Gaza. |
21:23 |
|
|
We
are told that every target we strike is a legitimate target under
international humanitarian law |
21:29 |
|
|
and is based on clear cut double-checked verified
intelligence. And when we strike, we do it in a surgical manner in a way
while taking all precautions to avoid, to minimise the civilian collateral
damage and casualties. But that is not the case. Then the question is
proportionality. |
21:36 |
|
|
But
what about a house of a militant? A target that was very common in many
operations before in Gaza. Two, 3, 4, 5, 6 storey building that you will wipe
out with a half one tonne bomb just because on the second floor, the flat to
the left, a Hamas militant lives. There's no way this is a legitimate target
under IHL. |
22:06 |
|
|
I
have no doubt that after October 7th, yeah, they've loosened some of the
restraints, some of the restrictions they had from previous wars. What
exactly we don't really know yet. But all what you need, for example, is to
decide that the amount of civilians you are allowed to take out for each
strike goes higher than before. |
22:33 |
|
|
And
you lower the rank of a Hamas operative that you're allowed to strike. So if
before, let's say for a company officer in Hamas, you are allowed to take out
five civilians, hypothetically speaking, and now in this war, for every rank
and file guy in Hamas, you're allowed to take out,-- i.e. to kill -- 15 civilians. A move like
this can explain a lot of what we see. |
22:58 |
|
Gaza,
bombed buildings |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Was there a viable
alternative to all this, to the scale of the killing? |
23:28 |
|
Barak
interview |
Israel's
famous for its targeted assassinations. I mean you yourself dressed as a
woman famously and went into Beirut and met up with Mossad and went and
killed a Palestinian leader. Israel's done that over the years. Why couldn't
they have tried to strategically target Hamas leaders rather than kill those
thousands of children? |
23:38 |
|
|
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I never deluded myself to believe that
by killing any individual you solve the problem. You give them a blow and
they will recover in a way; it just delayed the real decision. Real decisions
at the end are not about how to kill mosquitoes more effectively. It's about
how to drain the swamp. |
23:57 |
|
Livni
interview |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: You've worked for Mossad, probably no other country on earth
can target its enemies successfully. |
24:19 |
|
|
TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: Against terror, yes. JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: No other Mossad has been into Dubai and they have killed and
targeted Hamas leaders. They can do it in Beirut, they can do it in Dubai.
Wouldn't an alternative to thousands and thousands of women and children
being killed for Israel-- |
|
|
|
TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: They are hiding amongst these
civilians now. JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: You asked, is there an alternative? Wouldn't an- TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: So, so what is- JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: …alternative be to get the Hamas leadership, who were behind
this whole plan, like Yahya Sinwar, and to have done to him what Mossad in
Israel has done to other Hamas leaders… and not kill thousands of civilians? |
24:41 |
|
Super:
|
TZIPI
LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: It's not just about one leader,
it's about this organisation that his vision, ideology, is to kill Israel, is
to kill Jews. This is where we are standing. And unfortunately they turned it
into a regime. |
25:03 |
|
Drone
shot through bombed buildings |
Music
|
25:19 |
|
|
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: This is Benjamin Netanyahu’s war.
Israel’s longest serving Prime Minister. Throughout his career, Netanyahu has
tried to kill the idea of a Palestinian state. |
25:25 |
|
Livni
interview |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Do you trust Benjamin Netanyahu? TZIPI LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: Never. |
25:44 |
|
|
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Can there be peace while Benjamin
Netanyahu's the leader here? |
25:50 |
|
|
TZIPI LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: No. No. |
25:52 |
|
Barak
interview |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Can the world trust Benjamin
Netanyahu? EHUD BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I don't think
that anyone can trust him. Basically he lies to everyone and no one trusts
him. |
25:57 |
|
File
footage Netanyahu election victory |
|
06:05 |
|
|
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Just over a year ago, he managed to
cobble together the most right-wing coalition Israel’s ever seen. |
26:10 |
|
Israeli
cabinet meeting, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir |
Netanyahu awarded senior cabinet portfolios to two
extremists: Bezalel Smotrich, now the Finance Minister, and Itamar Ben-Gvir,
Minister of National Security. |
26:17 |
|
File
footage Ben-Gvir holding gun, walking past shops |
ITAMAR BEN-GVIR, MINISTER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY, ISRAEL: "Shoot
them. If they throw stones, shoot them."… ITAMAR BEN-GVIR, MINISTER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY, ISRAEL: "Go
to Syria!" SHOPKEEPER: "Go
to Europe!" JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Both ministers live in illegal
settlements. |
26:30 |
|
Scuffle
in market |
Ben-Gvir has criminal convictions for racist incitement
and supporting a Zionist terrorist group. He has been condemned by the US and
the EU for using racist rhetoric. |
26:41 |
|
Smotrich
speech |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Smotrich denies the very existence
of the Palestinian people. BEZALEL SMOTRICH, FINANCE MINISTER, ISRAEL: "There’s
no such thing as a Palestinian people." |
26:55 |
|
Smotrich
walks through crowd flanked by security |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: These two men are now accused of
driving Netanyahu’s Gaza policy, pushing an agenda that would force
Palestinians off their lands. DALAL IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION:
I think Israel's agenda… |
27:02 |
|
Iriqat
interview |
the
end goal is to annex the land. It doesn't take a genius to come up with that
conclusion. |
27:18 |
|
Netanyahu
shows map at UN |
BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Here’s Israel in 1948… DALAL
IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION: You know, Netanyahu
himself went to the UN in September and he showed that map from the river to
the sea. BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: …surrounded by a hostile Arab world. |
27:25 |
|
Iriqat
interview. Super: |
DALAL
IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION: What does that mean to
anybody? He doesn't see Palestine, he doesn't see Palestinians. |
27:34 |
|
Netanyahu
shows map at UN |
BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: The whole Middle East changes. |
27:41 |
|
Barak
interview |
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, the two racist
messianic guys that seems to be to very strong leverage on Bibi, they want to
turn it into a major religious war between Israel and Islam. JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Are they dangerous? |
27:44 |
|
|
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Sure, they're dangerous. |
28:03 |
|
Ayalon
interview |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: How powerful are Ben-Gvir and
Smotrich and what do you think of them? |
28:05 |
|
Super: |
AMI AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: I see them as
terrorists and as a Jewish messianics. They represent only a small minority
within the Israel society, but they get their power because of our coalition
system. JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: But can I just check something? |
28:11 |
|
|
Are you calling the Minister for National Security and
the Minister for Finance in Israel, are you calling them terrorists? AMI AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: Of course. They are. |
28:29 |
|
Barak
interview |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Is the brutal reality that Benjamin Netanyahu wants to
continue this war for his own political survival? |
28:38 |
|
|
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Look, I cannot penetrate his soul and
tell you for sure, but it's clear that he acts as if |
28:45 |
|
Super: |
the
main objective of this whole event is his survival. |
28:54 |
|
Netanyahu
with soldiers |
He
understands that if fighting will have a pause for six weeks or two times six
weeks, the Israeli republic will demand accountability in spite of the fact
that |
29:00 |
|
Barak
interview |
there
is no word in Hebrew for accountability. It was not needed in our culture,
but the public will demand it and he might lose his role as the prime
minister. |
29:15 |
|
Netanyahu
walks to cabinet |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: The Prime Minister’s Office did not respond when we put
these allegations to him. Mr Ben-Gvir and Mr Smotrich also failed to respond. |
29:26 |
|
Armed
troops – Hamas and PLA |
It
now appears that Netanyahu wanted to sow seeds of division between the
hardliners who ruled Gaza and the more conciliatory Palestinian Authority,
running the West Bank. AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: We did something very, very simple. |
29:38 |
|
Ayalon
100% |
We
did everything in order to make sure that Hamas will go on controlling Gaza
and Palestinian Authority will control the West Bank, so they will fight each
other. |
29:53 |
|
Still.
Hamas fighters |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Netanyahu allowed Qatar to give massive amounts of cash to
Hamas in Gaza. AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: So what we did |
30:06 |
|
Ayalon
100% |
with
the permission of our Prime Minister is to let Qatar to transfer a huge
amount of money in cash, probably more than $1.4 billion, and to make sure
that they will be able to send people to work in Israel and to achieve or to
get intelligence if they need. By doing it, we increase the power of Hamas. |
30:14 |
|
Barak
100% |
EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: That served Netanyahu who wanted to
avoid any discussion of two state solution. JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: So are you saying Benjamin Netanyahu deliberately boosted
Hamas to try to prevent a Palestinian state? EHUD
BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Yeah, sure. He deliberately and
systematically even told on record, whoever wants to avoid the threat of a
two state solution has to support my policy of paying protection money to the
Hamas. |
30:44 |
|
Soldiers
training |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Netanyahu maintains the Qatar money was to avoid a
humanitarian catastrophe. Having helped build up Hamas, Netanyahu has vowed
to destroy it. |
31:13 |
|
Shaul
100% |
YEHUDA
SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: He fed the beast and it exploded in our
face. |
31:28 |
|
Super: |
If
you base your national security strategy solely on force, then you need to
win 24/7 forever. |
31:31 |
|
|
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Is it possible that Hamas can be destroyed? |
31:40 |
|
|
YEHUDA
SHAUL, FMR ISRAELI ARMY COMMANDER: I don't believe you can destroy Hamas with
military force at all. The issue is this. Okay, if you want to destroy Hamas
in Gaza, what you will have to do is forcibly displace more than two million
Palestinians into Sinai. Go house by house, corner by corner, wipe out entire
Gaza above ground, |
31:43 |
|
Israel
soldiers in tunnels |
and
then go from months underground. Tunnel by tunnel, suffer hundreds of
casualties, if not thousands ultimately and maybe after a few years there
won't be Hamas in Gaza. But if you've done that, there's going to be Hamas
everywhere else. |
32:13 |
|
Dichter
interview 100% |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Can Hamas be destroyed? AVI
DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: Hamas as a military organisation
will be destroyed. |
32:31 |
|
Bombing
of Gaza |
We
are in a war in Gaza. We put two main goals in front of the military and
front of the security organisations. First to destroy all military
infrastructure of Hamas and PIJ in Gaza Strip and the second goal to topple
the regime of Hamas from continuing ruling and running the Gaza Strip. |
32:36 |
|
Photos
of Israeli hostages on wall |
These
were the two main goals and the main target was to release all hostages at
that time that we knew that were taken into the Gaza Strip. |
32:59 |
|
Dichter
interview 100%. Super: |
So
they can hide in tunnels. We should find them there. They can hide in houses.
We should find them there. It's not going to be stopped up until we're going
to destroy the military infrastructure of both in Gaza Strip. |
33:11 |
|
|
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: How long do you think Israel's war against Hamas will last? |
33:25 |
|
|
AVI
DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: How long it'll take? It may take a
year or two. |
33:28 |
|
President
Biden address. Super: |
U.S.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: We stand with Israel. We stand with Israel. And we will
make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of its citizens, defend
itself and respond to this attack. |
33:35 |
|
Thrall
interview 100% |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: What would happen if President Biden said thousands and
thousands of civilians have been killed in Gaza, the bombings indiscriminate,
as of tomorrow, I'm cutting off the supply of bombs? |
33:49 |
|
|
NATHAN
THRALL, FMR DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: The war would end. That
would be the end of this war. Israel cannot wage it without these bombs. |
33:59 |
|
Super: |
Music
|
37:04 |
|
Thrall
interview |
NATHAN
THRALL, FMR DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: The role of the US has been
as usual, full-fledged support for Israel, backing in the Security Council
supply of arms, total complicity and responsibility for all of Israel's
behaviour, and the bombing that is indiscriminate as the president said. And
at the same time a bit of public finger wagging. |
34:13 |
|
Newsreel.
|
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Since 1946 the US has provided more
than two hundred billion dollars in military aid to Israel. |
34:46 |
|
Photo
and news footage. Moshe Dayan, East Jerusalem |
In the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel’s then newly appointed
Defence Minister, Moshe Dayan, took personal command of Israeli forces as
they captured East Jerusalem. |
34:55 |
|
Lyons
to camera, Jerusalem |
Moshe Dayan once said: “Our American friends offer us
money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, but we decline
the advice.” Those words have echoed down through the decades. Now an
emboldened Israel has flattened vast sections of Gaza with American bombs,
declining the softly spoken advice of President Biden. |
35:17 |
|
Biden
address, stands in front of Israeli and American flags. Super: |
U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: The state of Israel was born to
be a safe place for the Jewish people. JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: President Biden is a lifelong
supporter of Israel. U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: I've long said, if Israel
didn’t exist we’d have to invent it. |
35:43 |
|
Thrall
interview |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: The supporters of Israel in America, of course, would say
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. It's in our strategic
interests to support it. Is that a fair argument? NATHAN
THRALL, FMR DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: Well, I don't know of any
democracy that, for more than half a century, has deprived millions of the
people under its control of basic civil rights based on their inborn
characteristics. |
35:57 |
|
|
That
is the case here in Israel. And I don't think it's defensible under any
definition of democracy to call this place a democracy. |
36:27 |
|
Biden
alighting from plane, greets Netanyahu |
EHUD BARAK, FMR PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Israel cannot
fight this regional war without having close relationship with the Americans.
We need their support, not just in munitions that we do not produce in a high
enough space to supply the needs of such a regional war, but we need them
also to protect us in the UN Security Council. |
36:37 |
|
Barak
interview |
We
needed them at the beginning of the crisis to deter Iran from getting
involved or from activating the Hezbollah against us. And we will need them
even in the Hague, to block the prospect that Israeli commanders or even
politically, they might find themselves as a criminal in the Hague or
demanded to be broke. Only America can help us to avoid all this. |
36:59 |
|
Photo.
Protests, Washington, New York |
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Pro-Israeli lobby groups in the US wield immense power. NATHAN
THRALL, FMR DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: Every politician in the
United States knows that they can pay a major price with their jobs for not
toeing the line. And the level |
37:26 |
|
Thrall
interview. Super: |
of
devastation that we are seeing now has so horrified the world and has so
horrified the American public, that now we have half of the people who voted
for Biden saying that Israel is perpetrating a genocide in Gaza. U.S.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Israel also has a fundamental responsibility |
37:44 |
|
Biden
address. Super: |
to
protect innocent civilians in Gaza. NATHAN
THRALL, FMR DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: And now, for Biden, for the
very first time, there is talk that an American president could lose an
election over being too pro-Israel. It's unheard of. |
38:04 |
|
Stills.
Bombing of Gaza |
And
so we have this enormous American hypocrisy of supplying the bombs that we
say are being used indiscriminately and expressing sympathy for the people
who are being killed by our bombs. |
38:24 |
|
|
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: American criticism has intensified,
with Washington repeatedly expressing frustration at the impact of the war on
civilians, but the bombing has continued. |
38:43 |
|
|
If
it's found later that war crimes were committed by Israel, |
38:55 |
|
|
is
the United States complicit in those war crimes? NATHAN
THRALL, FMR DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: 100%. 100%. |
39:00 |
|
Aid
drop |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: As the US continues to supply
Israel with munitions, it’s now dropping food aid to Gazans, amid warnings
that hunger has reached “catastrophic levels.” |
39:05 |
|
People
run to collect aid parcels |
Children
are already dying of starvation and the UN says famine is imminent. |
39:20 |
|
Dome
of the Rock, Wailing Wall |
AMIRA HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ:
There is this country and there are two peoples who live in it, and this
country belongs to the two peoples but any plan to expel or to get rid of one
of the two peoples will result in even more disasters. |
39:36 |
|
Hass
interview |
I
feel that now when this genocidal war is still going on in Gaza and against
Gaza, my first thing that I say is, there must be a ceasefire. |
39:53 |
|
|
JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: On what do you base the word genocide? AMIRA
HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ: I'd say genocidal. JOHN
LYONS, REPORTER: Genocidal. Why do you use the word genocidal? |
40:07 |
|
|
AMIRA
HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ: Because the enormity of
the killing, the enormity of the wounded, the enormity of the destruction,
the enormity of the fear that each person, including so many of my friends,
pass every moment of their life now for almost five months, the enormity of
it is genocidal. |
40:14 |
|
Ayalon
interview |
AMI
AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: Genocides start with something very, very
clear. The intention to kill a race or a people. We do not have this
intention. That's it. So it is not genocide. It is not a genocide intent. We
are facing a major threat and we are fighting against a threat. We are doing
many mistake, but it is far from being genocide or far from being a genocide
intent. That's it. |
40:34 |
|
International
Court of Justice hearing |
Music
|
41:10 |
|
Super:
26 January 2024 |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: The International Court of Justice
opened hearings on allegations that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza. INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE JUDGE: The acts and
omissions by Israel of which… JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: In a preliminary ruling, the court
said it was plausible that Israel’s acts could amount to genocide. The ICJ
ordered restraint. |
41:15 |
|
|
Another international court is investigating possible war
crimes by both Hamas and Israel. |
41:35 |
|
Hass
interview |
AMIRA
HASS, OCCUPIED TERRITORIES CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ: I'm so tired of the legal
terms for things and legal definitions. And I know that for years
Palestinians used to say genocide about almost everything, and I opposed it. When
you kill so many families in one bomb and destroy so many families, you don't
have any chain, no, no chain, no memories left for the family and no chain of
descendants for this family. You destroy culture, you destroy academics, you
destroy schools, you destroy clinics. I mean, the reconstruction will take
decades, decades. |
41:46 |
|
Iriqat
interview |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Some members of Hamas have said
clearly that we will try more October 7s, they're committed to wiping out
Israel. What can Israel do to protect itself? |
42:26 |
|
|
DALAL IRIQAT, PROF. DIPLOMACY & CONFLICT RESOLUTION:
I think the answer is very simple. They need to end the Israeli military
occupation. They need to grant the Palestinians back their rights, and they
need to recognise that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination,
to freedom, to sovereignty, to end independence, to liberation, to being
equally humans. |
42:40 |
|
Livni
interview |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: Do you now fear for the future? TZIPI LIVNI, FMR FOREIGN & JUSTICE MINISTER: I am
worried. I am worried about the future of Israel. Yes, more than ever. |
42:57 |
|
Ayalon
interview |
AMI AYALON, FMR HEAD OF SHIN BET: You cannot deter a
person, or a group of people, if they believe that they have nothing to lose.
We Israelis, we shall have security only when they will have hope. |
43:14 |
|
Dichter
interview |
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: What's the future for Palestinians?
|
43:29 |
|
|
AVI DICHTER, CURRENT ISRAELI CABINET MINISTER: Supporting
death will not bring you anything. If you don't believe that the Jewish
presence here between the Mediterranean and Jordan Valley is forever, you are
going to lose more than you've lost 'til now. |
43:31 |
|
Montage
of stills: displaced Palestinians amongst rubble |
ABDALJAWAD OMAR, ANALYST & LECTURER, BIRZEIT
UNIVERSITY: We're in a very bleak, very dark moment in our own history. But
at the same time, I always think that from the depths of despair, from the
depths of this darkness, we can always see some light. |
43:45 |
|
Oman
interview |
And perhaps there is some hope that we can reconfigure
life in the Holy Land in a way that treats people equally, treats people with
the humanity that they deserve. |
43:59 |
|
GVs
Israelis and Palestinians |
Music |
44:14 |
|
|
JOHN LYONS, REPORTER: It’s often said that this conflict
is impossibly complicated. Now even more so – after the atrocities of Oct 7
and horrors of its aftermath -- trust is broken and animosities are greater
than ever. |
44:20 |
|
Lyons
overlooking Wailing Wall |
But when you really listen to both sides, their
aspirations have not changed. |
44:37 |
|
Lyons
to camera |
The essence is this. Israelis want security. Palestinians
want an independent state. If Israel agreed to end its occupation and
Palestinians guaranteed Israeli security, then this most intractable of all
conflicts could end. |
44:43 |
|
|
Right now, it feels like we are light years away from
that, but if something doesn't give, then the horrors of October seven and
the death and devastation in Gaza that followed are unlikely to be the
darkest place to which this conflict sinks. |
45:00 |
|
Drone
shot over Gaza |
Music |
45:16 |
|
Credits
[see below] |
|
45:28 |
|
Outpoint |
|
|